Hard Cider experiment

[fermented-vegan]

Hello Folks, :)

Here is where I will be documenting my very first wild fermentation hard cider experiment.

So upon going down to my local brew store and pricing out equipment and also getting some advice from the kind and helpful owners, I found that they recommended that the primary vessel be larger than the secondary. As they recommend that there be some head space in the primary, and when you transfer to secondary, you leave the bottom inch or so behind. So you end up with a lesser amount of ferment than the actual size of the primary. With this information, I would have had to purchase a 3 gallon (US) glass jug(primary), and two - one gallon glass jugs for secondary. Which would have been $40 or so all together. Which was more than I wanted to initially spend until I feel more confident in my ability to ferment cider. In addition I have no idea how much juice I will get out of the apples I bought. So I ended up buying a small bag of one step no rinse disinfectant for a few dollars to make sure the containers are clean of any bacteria before the juice goes in.

As it stands now today... I started the starter! LOL I used four - two cups glass jars. Two each got an entire apple peel, and the other two just whatever yeasts were in the peel from juicing. I filled them to about halfway or slightly more. It took about two large MacIntosh apples to make about a cups worth of juice with my Juiceman juicer. (Say that three times fast! LOL) So I don't think I'll end up with a huge amount of juice to work with when I finally start juicing all the apples. But we'll see.

The juice is surprisingly clear. Although perhaps the pulp is caught up in the large head of foam it made from juicing. But boy does it taste good! :D

I could potentially go out and buy a five gallon glass jug, stopper, and airlock, and have the local apple orchard fill it up for me. In the middle of October they have a special day where they fill up people's fermentation containers for $25. A fresh pressed blend and not pasteurized. :) Versus the 1/2 bushel I picked for $20. I suspect this to be a very economical deal. But the problem is that I don't want to make an expensive mistake like I did with vegetable fermenting by purchasing a large and expensive Harsch crock that didn't work for me. So my instinct is to start small, get it right, and then scale up when my experience shows I can get good results.

I'll have to price things out and see what I want to spend and/or risk. In the mean time we'll see where my current experiment leads me.

Peace & Love from a vegan :)

[Tim Hall]

Hi Vegan,

I most often use a 6-gallon carboy (or two 3-gallon carboys for blends) for the primary, and a 5-gallon for the secondary. I know the size jump in fermenters doesn't make this easy for small amounts. But you don't have to use a smaller vessel for the secondary.

This isn't the ideal approach, but you could reserve a little fresh cider you've frozen and add it to the secondary to top it off.

You know, if I could get fresh cider for that price and not have to worry about pressing it myself, I would.

Tim

[fermented-vegan]

Hello Tim, :)

Thanks for that information! I think you've got the right idea. I wish I had realized that juicing my own apples while a fun a experiment, is not very economical. But screw it! They are yummy apples to eat even if I never juice them. So I priced out a 6 and 5 gallon glass carboy, plus all the other odds and ends I would need. And I'm probably looking at somewhere between $90 and $100. I wasn't planning on spending this kind of money initially. But I think to do this right and purchase fresh pressed apple juice economically to not quite fill the 6 gallon carboy for $25 is the way to go. It's all about priorities I guess. :P LOL What makes me chuckle is that a 3 gallon glass carboy is $30, but then it is only another $5 and $10 to jump up to a 5 and 6 gallon carboy. That doesn't quite make sense to me, but it is what it is.

So I have until October 17th which is the day when the local apple orchard fills carboys for home fermenters, to decide whether I'm going to do this. It's unfortunate that it is only a once a year thing that they do this. As I hate making rushed decisions. But perhaps I'll have enough time to get comfortable with this and acquire all the information I need.

What I question, is it risky in terms of the end result, doing a wild ferment with such a large batch of apple juice? I assume that as long as my starters are fermenting vigorously and look and smell ok that everything would be fine? My concern is that I would be investing a good amount of money in equipment and apple cider. And I only have one opportunity per year to get fresh pressed apple cider that is un-pasteurized for cheap. So I don't want it to be a complete failure like my attempts at sauerkraut with the expensive Harsch crock that I used to have. Any thoughts about this? Thanks.

Peace & Love from a vegan :)

[Tim Hall]

I know the price jump doesn't seem to make sense, but there is a certain economic logic to it. When you think about it purely in terms of geometry, here's what you get: For the same shape fermenter the volume increases exponentially, while the surface area increases geomentrically, as the linear dimensions increase arithmetically. In simple terms, the bigger the fermentor, the less material you need to hold a given volume.

Example: a 12x12x12" box holds 1,728 cubic inches. A 24x24x24" box is only twice as big in linear dimensions, but holds 13,824 cubic inches...8 times as much volume. So the larger box is (in theory)exponentially more economical to make per unit volume.

I know this sounds really nerdy, but it's math that has a lot of implications if you explore fermentation more technically. What it implies is that you have proportionally less cider/beer/wine coming into contact with air the larger the volume of the ferment. It also means that larger wooden barrels impart less oak flavor to casked ferments than smaller barrels, because the surface area-to-volume ratio is less.

Anyway, if you plan on doing more with alcohol ferments, you'll probably be happy with the larger fermenters. Just treat them well - remember they are fragile glass. Be careful picking them up by the neck when they are full...I've heard of people literally snapping the necks off fully-filled carboys. Also NEVER pour any liquid into them that is significantly warmer than ambient temperature...they'll begin to crack from heat stress.

I'm not necessarily advocating going with a 6- and 5-gallon size. What I was suggesting in my previous message is you can use two 1-gallon jugs (or two 3-gallon carboys), and simply top off the second one with fresh cider to reduce the head space. Agian this isn't ideal, but if you keep a sanitary environment, and are careful not to oxygenate the added juice too much, this should work fine.

I know that 5 gallons is a daunting amount if you're worried about it going off. I would just make sure you have a healthy starter going a couple of days before filling your carboy. In the event you can't get your full batch started properly, you could always have a packet of wine or champagne yeast on hand to pitch in there. It wouldn't be a wild ferment at that point, but it will at least turn into cider. Ask your homebrewing supplier for a packet of yeast that is good for "restarting stuck fermentations." This back-up plan should only cost you a couple of bucks. I always have a few packets of champagne yeast lying around.

[Tim Hall]

Just FYI, if you do go with the 6- and 5-gallon combination, I typically plan on having 5-1/2 gallons in my 6-gallon primary fermentor. This is plenty to fill the 5-gallon secondary, and will also give you a few glasses of 'green' cider to taste test when you rack it.

[fermented-vegan]

Hello Tim, :)

Just FYI, if you do go with the 6- and 5-gallon combination, I typically plan on having 5-1/2 gallons in my 6-gallon primary fermentor. This is plenty to fill the 5-gallon secondary, and will also give you a few glasses of 'green' cider to taste test when you rack it.

Thanks. That was pretty much also my understanding. So how do you tell though how much is enough in it? Is there any external measurement markings on the carboy? Or are you just "eyeballing" it?

Peace & Love from a vegan :)

[Tim Hall]

Fill up your 5-gallon carboy with water, carefully pour it (it will weigh about 45lbs) into the 6-gallon carboy, add a 1/2 gallon, then mark it with a magic marker. Doesn't have to be exact.

[fermented-vegan]

Thanks Tim, :)

Of course it would be the obvious answer! LOL

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So this is day six of my starters. I didn't think it would take this long. But nothing much was happening after four days. One with the peel was very mildly bubbling. The others nothing. One jar without the peels got thrown out because of mold forming. So a couple days back I started opening the jars completely to let oxygen in then closing them tight and shaking to get oxygen into the juice a few times a day. And low and behold, this is what got them to start fermenting. The jar with the peel that was previously doing nothing, is now bubbling the most and has the best smell. It's interesting that they all smell slightly different. So I'm glad I did more than one jar. I'm going to wait and see if they get more active in their fermentation before I choose one jar to use and juice up the rest of the apples for the main batch.

Peace & Love from a vegan :)

[Tim Hall]

Yeah, I started reading your post - the part about the slow start, and my first thought was the starters needed more oxygen. Give the containers plenty of head space, like at least 50% air in the jars, open them periodically and either stir or shake them to get oxygen dissolved in the juice.

Oxygen is VERY important to get wild yeasts started. This is true for your full-sized batch too. Make sure you get as much oxygen into the juice as possible in the beginning. Once the fermentation becomes vigorous, you don't need or want any extra oxygen.

This is probably a good test run to see what works. I would be inclined to get some more starters going to see if you can improve on the process. Maybe see what happens when you only half-fill a jar with juice, shake it vigorously (till it gets really foamy), then drop some apple peel in it?

[fermented-vegan]

Hello Tim, :)

Yes, it's all a learning lesson as I do this. I'm glad though that I didn't loose all four starters.

Give the containers plenty of head space, like at least 50% air in the jars, open them periodically and either stir or shake them to get oxygen dissolved in the juice.

That is indeed what I did. Although the opening and shaking part was probably four days later than I should have done it. So it appears that my only mistake was to not start allowing oxygen in by opening the lid and then closing it, then shaking the jar multiple times a day.

This is probably a good test run to see what works. I would be inclined to get some more starters going to see if you can improve on the process. Maybe see what happens when you only half-fill a jar with juice, shake it vigorously (till it gets really foamy), then drop some apple peel in it?

Why would I want to do that if I have a good smelling starter that is vigorously fermenting? (See my notes below)

Oxygen is VERY important to get wild yeasts started. This is true for your full-sized batch too. Make sure you get as much oxygen into the juice as possible in the beginning. Once the fermentation becomes vigorous, you don't need or want any extra oxygen.

I need to clarify what you brought up here. If I'm using a very vigorously fermenting starter in the main larger batch of apple juice. Is it still necessary to get oxygen via shaking or stirring into the main batch? I thought the point of the starter was to inoculate the main batch so it takes off on it's own? Thanks

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Ok so the three starters are all bubbling/fermenting very vigorously now. So much so, that CO2 is leaking out of the tightly closed lid. And opening the lid gets a very satisfying sound burst of CO2 coming out. It's still the same case as last time where one jar with the apple peels in it smells particularly nicer than the other two. I'd describe the smell as more apple-y and sweeter in comparison to the others with no apparent "off" smells. Where as the other two smell a little off. Like maybe a hint of vinegar, or slightly musty/moldy smelling. Even though there does not appear to be mold on them. It's not that the other two are terrible. But certainly given the choice, my nose definitely recognizes the better of the three. So I think today is the day to juice the apples for the main batch.

As far as my concerns about having too much sediment or pulp from juicing the apples versus a traditional pressing. I don't think it is going to be much of a problem. What I've found is that the pulp shows up in two ways. There is a course and heavy type that sinks to the bottom. This doesn't seem to be a lot, and I'm guessing it will reduce in size as the yeasts eat away at it. The other part is a lighter than the juice foamy layer that stays on top. And left to it's own for a few days it solidifies. I found this out when I dumped the moldy starter with out the peel. Although perhaps the full primary fermentation may change it, I don't know. I think when I rack the cider to secondary I'll either be able to remove that top layer pretty easily. Or it will stay in the jar with the bottom layer as I pour it into secondary.

Peace & Love from a vegan :)